[Alexander E.]

Found very interesting description of the "National" Assembly by one of the participants - Eygló Svala Arnarsdóttir

http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandrev ... _id=352262

And here are some of my comments...

Power to the People

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I can’t remember the last time a stranger offered me good morning on the street in Reykjavík

We might walk very different streets then as I'm offered good mornings (as well as days and evenings) all the time. By complete strangers.

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Attendees help themselves to the generous breakfast buffet

ONE

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Everything seems thoroughly organized and well-thought through, highly unusual for Icelanders used to doing everything in a rush at the last minute

. Icelanders are not Germans for sure but I found these words rather insulting. If your friends are used to such rush arrangements - this doesn't mean Icelanders are "country folk" in business arrangements. At least I didn't noticed anything different from US or Japan arrangements I experienced.

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The discussion leader explains the first project: to determine which values we believe should be honored in Icelandic society in the future. We write them down, present them, everyone gets a chance to talk,

Have you ever participated in focus groups before? Cause those who did must have been disqualified from the discussion. That's the well established rules of such events.

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I notice that we’re incredibly unanimous.

I'm not sure this is always a good sign - unanimous...

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the vast majority of the 1,400 National Assembly participants were chosen at random.

As I heard only 1,200 were selected at random and 300 invited but in total only a little above 1,200 showed up. Which make me wonder why this event is called "National". A football game attracts more people.

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Time flies and suddenly we smell that the lunch buffet has arrived,

TWO

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My group focuses on equality and we come up with the following sentence: “A just society without poverty based on welfare and equality, where human rights are honored, the participation of all is guaranteed and the individual is given a chance to shine.”

Sounds good to me.

It had been written more then 150 years ago, in 19th century... in Communist Manifesto. So education is an important value indeed.

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Critics of the National Assembly have called the values empty words and the sentences wishful thinking. They expected a clear-cut strategy for creating a better society.

Legal note - I didn't expect anything from this party. I believe that some farmer from West Fjords might create some valid strategy but not the randomly selected crowd. Like Sir Newton vs. crowds in all English pubs of the time - all of them knew the drunk person always felt down. But the relevant law of physics was written by one person. And he even didn't drink that much!

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I don’t think the National Assembly ever pretended to be a strategy-making platform but rather a place for the public to exchange ideas, discuss their visions for the future, bond, and to establish a direct link to ministers, MPs and business leaders.

If you visit mbl.blog or any other Icelandic blog places - you'll see that some bloggers have much wider audience. No need to say that 1,200 people are not "public" if compared with 30,000 bloggers.

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They now know exactly how the nation feels and they have the power to incorporate the values and ideas discussed during the assembly into their policies.

Well...I assumed that when people voted for MPs they did it because candidates pretended to know how the nation felt. And now you say this is like they just came from Moon and thanks to national party got the feelings of the place called Iceland?

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This information has been made public and is accessible to all on the National Assembly’s website, so it would be unwise of them to ignore it entirely.

Or really? And what would you do when they ignore? Go to another THREE course party?

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The day finishes with a well-deserved meat soup feast.

THREE.

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However, I believe almost every one of the invitees was satisfied with the assembly and sensed the same positive energy in the air as I did.

With free three main course and chat about obvious - many people would be satisfied.

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I imagine they feel responsible as participants to live up to the high standards they set and inspire others to do the same.

OK, let's start from you. What exactly are you going to promote? And - most critical - how?

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We must never forget that the power to create a better future is in our hands.

What about the power to keep our recent affairs in order?

PS. No personal offense intended, honest.

[Grif]

Alexander,

I'm trying to read your post as open minded as possible, but I still fail to understand which point you're trying to drive home. If you were at the assembly, I'd like to hear your views on the points that you seem to disagree with Eygló.

If you truly mean no personal offense, what do you try to bring across? Except bashing the whole national assembly without having to formulate your view in a coherent way?
The way I see it is that the post from Eygló was a summery of how she experienced the event and not an in-depth analysis.

[discuss]

[Alexander E.]

Grif wrote:

Alexander,

I'm trying to read your post as open minded as possible, but I still fail to understand which point you're trying to drive home.

Well ..then try just to read both quotes and comments. Without opening anything. I admit my English is rather hard to swallow but... but remember to read Eygló's words and my comment to them together. My comments don't have much sense alone. That's why they are comments. Not statements.

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If you were at the assembly, I'd like to hear your views on the points that you seem to disagree with Eygló.

I was not selected to the "National" assembly. Neither I have any chance to influence that selection. Nor I delegated my power and visions of the future to someone selected by another ones.
I'm not saying that those who arranged the event were wrong in this selection. This was their idea - so all rights to run it this or that way belonged to them.
What I don't get - why they monopolize "National" logo? Less people that at any given football game can't be "national".

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If you truly mean no personal offense, what do you try to bring across? Except bashing the whole national assembly without having to formulate your view in a coherent way?

I was doing by best to keep as coherent as I could...without laughing.
I might be a cynical person - but that is the result of several such "high expectation" and "national whatsoever" all ended in epic fails.
Just to give you some perspective (and source of my cynicism) - people are crying "Kreppa, kreppa! helvetis f.f.!" I'm telling you - this is not kreppa! But I'll tell you how to know that kreppa really comes - when you can't find in the store ... bananas? No. When you can't find kartoflur og mjolk. Have you experienced a food stamps, Grif? Not because you are poor but because it was the national food distribution method. And you could buy caviar at black market - but not milk, bread and other everyday basics (including toilet paper!).
But all had started from that kind of "high spirit" and "good intentions" only (remember "hell is paved with..."?)

But back to Eygló´s article.

The problem (as I see it) is that she is read by those who never was in Iceland. And who will judge Iceland from her words.
Sorry but I'm getting góðan daginn from strangers all the time. I noticed that "phenomena" when one of my friend visiting Iceland asked me if I knew all these people. And was surprised - in a positive way - that I had no idea who they were. Of course it's strange to expect such words at Laugavegur...on Friday night

Or another note about Icelanders being able to organize such event without a glitch.
Sorry, but what event? Twelve hundreds people? Even for Iceland this is not something special - shareholders meeting of the Kaupthing or Orkuveita must be bigger. Or National Marathon.

Eygló mentioned THREE times about food! Some foreign readers might make very wrong conclusion why this party was so important to her (and others)

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The way I see it is that the post from Eygló was a summery of how she experienced the event and not an in-depth analysis.

Is this a good thing or bad thing that we see things a little different, Grif? If we are unanimous - this would be another boring blog/forum with comments like "Great!" or "+1!" or "Nice" etc.
I didn't say anything about results of the Assembly. I only commented experience of Eygló (I think)...

Now the funny part.
I didn't know how comments worked at Iceland Review and was surprised to find out that I had to send it by e-mail to the author of the article i.e. to Eygló. It was not clear whether I was sending my comments to the black hole or somewhere else as there is no comments under articles and just very few "letters" in the special section of the site.
That's why I posted it here (more convenient in terms of formating etc) and gave the link to the post in my e-mail.
I understand that getting such "comments" by an e-mail from a stranger might be ... you know ... so I add some text to make myself clear.
I've got the message from Eygló asking my name and hometown to publish my comment. I replied etc. But due to misunderstanding she posted not the comments ... but my "explanation" from the e-mail (see the link above). So now it's the wrong text hidden in some deep section of their site anyway (not a problem as I had to paste-copy it only).

BTW, Grif, are you asking me as Moderator or just as Grif?
I run a forum by myself and had to get two accounts for myself - as admin and as a user. So people know whom the are arguing with - me or Admin (who always right)...

Hope I made myself clear ...a little...very many little...

[Alexander E.]

Wow...it's a long one
It was not my intention, I swear!

[Grif]

Alexander wrote:

Well ..then try just to read both quotes and comments.

Yup, did that.


As for the 'National' part of the event's name, I personally think that 1,200/300,000 isn't a bad number. A football match might attract more people (I have no idea, never been to one) but I don't see the relevance comparing the two.
While still on this topic, I find a turnout of 1,200 / 1,500 very good.

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I might be a cynical person

No! really?!

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Just to give you some perspective (and source of my cynicism) - people are crying "Kreppa, kreppa! helvetis f.f.!" I'm telling you - this is not kreppa! But I'll tell you how to know that kreppa really comes - when you can't find in the store ... bananas? No. When you can't find kartoflur og mjolk. Have you experienced a food stamps, Grif? Not because you are poor but because it was the national food distribution method. And you could buy caviar at black market - but not milk, bread and other everyday basics (including toilet paper!).

I've read and heard plenty of Icelanders who realise this.
Over here (in Belgium) we had an economical recession as well, pretty much like the rest of the world. Our banks had money injected from the state as well (and pretty high numbers as well). Difference is the reason why this was needed. That changes a whole lot.

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The problem (as I see it) is that she is read by those who never was in Iceland. And who will judge Iceland from her words.

A valid point. Especially the greeting & organisation part. Those made wonder a bit as well.
We all know that there are people that get greeted more than others. And it's not because something that they do. Personally, I tend to fall in the latter category, however, I do remember that last summer I was greeted by strangers a few times (well, I was the stranger). Given the fact that I have a terrible memory, there probably were a few more occasions.

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Or another note about Icelanders being able to organize such event without a glitch.
Sorry, but what event? Twelve hundreds people? Even for Iceland this is not something special - shareholders meeting of the Kaupthing or Orkuveita must be bigger. Or National Marathon.

Have you been to the shareholders meetings? (No, me neither) But, maybe they are incredibly bad organised. I'd be surprised though.

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At least I didn't noticed anything different from US or Japan arrangements I experienced.

Maybe she just doesn't have the experience you have with people abroad? Maybe she thinks that people in other countries organise things differently?

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Eygló mentioned THREE times about food! Some foreign readers might make very wrong conclusion why this party was so important to her (and others)

If she tried to give a summary of the events, it was only fair of her to mention it. After all, it takes a lot of resources to organise this. And the fact that it was free for the participants alone, thus being sponsored, makes it only right to mention it, no?

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BTW, Grif, are you asking me as Moderator or just as Grif?
I run a forum by myself and had to get two accounts for myself - as admin and as a user. So people know whom the are arguing with - me or Admin (who always right)...

In the past I had to get me 2 accounts more than once just for that reason. However, I hope not having to do that here. Notice I didn't take any special colour in my name, just for that reason. Besides, the moderation work I do is pretty small (except accepting filtering spam/legit from first time posters, but nobody actually sees who's doing this). Normally it's Alda who's in charge of the actual moderation.
Therefore, you can assume I always speak as a regular user (who happens to do some administration). Besides, what if I had a second account without admin privileges which is known to be me, and I made my original reply with that account. Would that not have resulted in the same way?
On the other hand, that's the reason I felt I had to add the '[discuss]' line. So, maybe it would have been good to have had a second account. Certainly food for thought.
Question: do you announce which is your 'user' account? Or try to keep it as secret as possible?

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Wow...it's a long one
It was not my intention, I swear!

Err...mine neither

[alda]

I'm not going to get drawn into this discussion, except to comment on one point which has come up a couple of times: the one about the shareholders meeting.

Let us keep firmly in mind that a shareholders' meeting of, say, Kaupthing (or Arion, now) is probably organized by a professional event organizing company that has lots of experience and is getting paid a sh*tload of dosh for their efforts. The National Assembly was organized by volunteers from all social sectors, who were doing it in their spare time, for no money.

There's a BIG difference.

[Alexander E.]

Thanks, Alda, for the remark.
I think this is a very important remark.
Although we disagree about "wisdom of the crowds" concept - we both agree, that Icelanders ARE CAPABLE to manage their matters by themselves.
And this is exactly what I'm trying to explain to you

PS. Volunteers and professional event organizers could be the very same people, right?
There is no doubts the Assembly was assembled by professionals. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[Alexander E.]

Grif wrote:

As for the 'National' part of the event's name, I personally think that 1,200/300,000 isn't a bad number.

I never said the number was bad or wrong. Not NATIONAL - that's it.

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A football match might attract more people (I have no idea, never been to one) but I don't see the relevance comparing the two.

Laugardalsvöllur has 9,800 seats. And even when it's full - this is not NATIONAL event. Except for football fans.

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While still on this topic, I find a turnout of 1,200 / 1,500 very good.

Good FOR WHAT?
In US scale it would be 1,200,000 people. Would it be good or bad? I think there is no good nor bad...by itself. Without comparison and reasons.

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I might be a cynical person

No! really?!

Unfortunately, this is true *cynically checking Grif's sense of humor*

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Just to give you some perspective (and source of my cynicism) - people are crying "Kreppa, kreppa! helvetis f.f.!" I'm telling you - this is not kreppa!

I've read and heard plenty of Icelanders who realise this.

And I see and hear Icelanders everyday - and think they haven't... yet. Maybe those who remember times when apples and apellsinur were available only in Christmas. But by plenty?

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Over here (in Belgium) we had an economical recession as well, pretty much like the rest of the world... That changes a whole lot.

Let's get back to this topic the very next day you find no bananas in the store!

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The problem (as I see it) is that she is read by those who never was in Iceland. And who will judge Iceland from her words.

A valid point.

From the point of a person from London or Paris or San-Francisco it sounds rather ...let's say strange. Like Icelanders are kids or mentally challenged nation. There are some typical habits... like been always late. Or saying "I'll be in 10 minutes" - that should be read as an hour.
But this is true for small, private matters. And easy to get used to.
At "business level" - the only difference is much easier dress code.

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Have you been to the shareholders meetings? (No, me neither) But, maybe they are incredibly bad organised. I'd be surprised though.

Never encountered badly arranged business meetings. At least food was always in good quality and in plenty. Never participated at such meeting in Iceland (thanks god I'm not holding anything). But met with top executives of local banks and top companies. The food was excellent, the rest - nothing to report about (just business bla-bla-bla)

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At least I didn't noticed anything different from US or Japan arrangements I experienced.

Maybe she just doesn't have the experience you have with people abroad?

I also think so - and this was the reason to write a comment (maybe cynical - but I'm not the most polite person around).

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Eygló mentioned THREE times about food! Some foreign readers might make very wrong conclusion why this party was so important to her (and others)

If she tried to give a summary of the events, it was only fair of her to mention it.

Kannski. She just reported what she thought was important. I understand

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After all, it takes a lot of resources to organise this. And the fact that it was free for the participants alone, thus being sponsored, makes it only right to mention it, no?

If they were selected and invited - this would be very strange to ask them to pay, no? How many selected people would show up if told "You'll have to pay for breakfast, lunch and dinner plus for office supplies you will consume"? I doubt Eygló could agree or afford that (remember - I'm cynical man!).

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Question: do you announce which is your 'user' account? Or try to keep it as secret as possible?

Yes I have two "names" and it's stated in the rules that anyone can beat crap out of me as the user. And as Admin I never participate in any discussions - only doing administrative work (including banning and deleting comments ).

Question.
Have you read my "hidden" text about involving all Icelandic ants into decision making?

[Grif]

Alexander E. wrote:

Grif wrote:

While still on this topic, I find a turnout of 1,200 / 1,500 very good.

Good FOR WHAT?

I just meant the 80% turn up. Just as a relative number.

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Unfortunately, this is true *cynically checking Grif's sense of humor*

So, you're cynically checking how cynical I am?

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And I see and hear Icelanders everyday - and think they haven't... yet. Maybe those who remember times when apples and apellsinur were available only in Christmas. But by plenty?

Clearly I spoke to lot less people and not even a even distribution.

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If they were selected and invited - this would be very strange to ask them to pay, no? How many selected people would show up if told "You'll have to pay for breakfast, lunch and dinner plus for office supplies you will consume"? I doubt Eygló could agree or afford that (remember - I'm cynical man!).

No but on the other hand, taking it for granted and not saying anything or saying thanks (directly, through mentioning it in a blog or some other way) makes all the difference.

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Question.
Have you read my "hidden" text about involving all Icelandic ants into decision making?

Yep, I did. Would be interesting to see it work. However, I believe there are many pitfalls in this system. But maybe this would stray too far off for this thread. Certainly makes great food for thought and maybe we can have a chat about it over a pint next time I'm in Iceland?

[Alexander E.]

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Yep, I did. Would be interesting to see it work. However, I believe there are many pitfalls in this system. But maybe this would stray too far off for this thread. Certainly makes great food for thought and maybe we can have a chat about it over a pint next time I'm in Iceland?

Off the thread with "Power to people" title? I think we're just getting on.
Next time in Iceland? OK but you pay for beer as I think it will be 400 isk per 1 euro then (unless we do something).

What pitfalls are your talking about, Grif?
So far I just exposed the concept. Like the concept "Earth circles around Sun". If public don't agree with this fundamental concept - then it makes no sense to calculate the distance between two bodies etc.

Maybe the text of the concept is not clear so I repeat three main points of the concept.

1. The problem of current systems (tens of them are used nowadays) is that people delegate their decision powers to "representatives" (aka MP, congressmen, deputate ect.) . It doesn't matter whether they are elected, selected or appointed. As soon as power is delegated - it's gone.
No matter how smart, wise, honest, full of integrity bla-bla-bla these representatives might be - they are not me. And in real life these representatives - even best of them - represent only themselves plus friends and buddies but not you nor me. Till next round of selection - when they have to show they are again your best friends.
So I'm suggesting to give the power to say Yes or No back to all people of Iceland. Not randomly selected, not pushed up by the crowds, not elected - but to ALL.

2. Iceland is in unique position to make it work. In fact I couldn't think of any other country that could make it work now.
Iceland is ready in social, political and technological terms.
All this events - InDefence campaign, Borgarfundur, street protests, now "national" Assembly showed that people of Iceland are ready politically, socially, mentally at last to handle their own power.
Elections have >80% turnover of Icelandic voters, cause they do care. (Only Soviet Union had better numbers! )
Everyone is connected - so it's as easy to click the button as it's easy for MP to push it.
Everyone can be informed as much as he is willing to be informed about anything going on in Iceland 9have you seen sleeping MPs during their very important sessions?)
Everyone really have to make decisions as "easy life" is over.
etc.


3. There is no need to change any legislature, constitution, laws or whatever. This system might start to work right tomorrow - as soon as some Icelander (nor utlendingur) turns on the sever with simple voting software and discussion board.
Just imagine if 100,000 Icelanders say Yes to the same matter that just 63 professional MP say No....
Now they always can claim that 300 street protesters are just hugs, that 1200 ants gathered to get free food etc. cause it's easy to say they are wrong or just ignore 1% or even 20% of Icelanders.
But what can they say if they hear 100,000 f*******selfs ?

Once more time:
- no more power delegation to selected/elected "representatives"
- Iceland is ready and Icelanders are capable to handle the power
- no wait for "representatives" to give the power back - take it with "TCP/IP revolution"